Delia Quigley: STORIES
Every woman has a story to tell. Every story holds her wisdom.
In STORIES, host Delia Quigley explores the moments, memories, and experiences that shape who we are as women. From deeply personal reflections to conversations with inspiring voices, each episode invites you to discover the truths within a life’s narrative.
At the heart of these stories is the wisdom of our Five Bodies—physical, energy, mental, wisdom, and divine—because the way we live, feel, think, and sense shapes every chapter of our journey.
Whether you’re navigating change, seeking clarity, or simply curious about the threads that connect us all, these stories will guide you toward greater self-understanding, compassion, and alignment.
Because when we share our stories, we awaken the wisdom within.
Delia Quigley: STORIES
Be Yourself: Everyone Else Is Taken
Creativity doesn’t begin with applause; it starts with the quiet decision to be honest. Delia sits down again with longtime friend and collaborator Deborah Fernandez to examine the intimate terrain where limits, talent, and truth meet. Through stories from decades in dance, teaching, and visual art, we explore why “good or bad” is the wrong question and how authenticity can turn constraint into fuel.
Deb shares the pivotal moment a student felt truly seen—and how that recognition unlocked an unusual choreographic path. We dig into the tension between audience expectations and artistic courage, teasing apart commerce from compromise without dismissing the value of craft. From Cy Twombly’s polarizing scribbles to Coppola’s self-financed audacity and Fosse’s iconic style forged from physical limits, the conversation maps how boundaries can sharpen voice rather than stifle it.
We also wade into AI as a creative tool: what counts as authorship, why process still matters, and how friction can be part of meaning. Aging and curiosity take center stage too, as we talk about vigilance, practice, and why many people rediscover aliveness through simple making—paint, clay, or song—well beyond their careers. The throughline is clear: intention directs the work, constraints shape it, and honesty gives it life. If you’ve felt stuck at the blank page, this episode offers a way forward—set a small constraint, get present, and ask what wants to emerge through the boundary.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs creative courage, and leave a review to help more listeners find us. Your stories and reflections keep this conversation alive.
Welcome back to Stories. I'm your host, Delia Quigley. And today I'm trying something a little different. This episode continues a conversation I began with another wise woman, Deborah Fernandez, in my previous episode, Life as a Creative Act. I felt there was more in the interview worth sharing. So this time, Deb and I turn inward. We explore the part of the artist that meets limitation. Not as an obstacle, but really as a mirror. So, in this extended conversation, I'm going to let it flow as we reflect on the inner life of the artists. So, Delia, how about a little introduction to your friendship with Deborah Fernandez? Alright, well, let's begin that it was the late 70s. I had heard about my brother's new girlfriend from a few sources. I remember thinking that she must be pretty outrageous to take on the eccentricity of my big brother, and I was right. We met at the gal party for the crew of the Knights of Santiago, the night her father was crowned as king. Deborah schmoozhed the costume crowd with a charm bred from her Cuban roots. I immediately recognized a kindred spirit. The years that followed found us dancing the Jota alongside Jose Molina, living together in a fourth floor walk-up in New York City, watching each other grow into mature women intent on crafting a life out of what we loved. We've been friends for over 40 years, and there are only a handful of these special relationships you and anyone will experience in a lifetime. Deb was a full professor and the chair of dance at Skidmore College there in Saratoga Springs. And today she is retired, and she turned her creativity, her talent, and her artistic expression into creating really amazing, beautiful collage. She told me once that her teaching philosophy is along the lines of the quote by Shunru Suzuki. He says, Each of you is perfect the way you are, and you can use a little improvement.
SPEAKER_01:In other words, I want to get us away from thinking it's just about the arts. Can I paint? Can I make music? That's up to you to work on those skills, but you can still be creative. And I think the main thing is that we've got to release ourselves. And this is what stops a lot of people. And I'll tell a story about my student. Is it good or bad? That's what gets us. Comparison. Is it good or bad? So it's not really about is it good or bad? It's is it authentic? That's the word that I've landed on. Is it true to me? And then you got to be ready to let go of people's judgments because maybe you just want to draw squiggles. If that feels good and that feels authentic, and that gives you the feeling of something inside of you that wants to come forward, that wants to come out, then that's creativity. But you gotta watch that little demon voice of is it good or bad?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so you know, when you were talking like that, uh Saitwombly came to mind right away. Yes, right. So scribbles, juvenile, childish, chess, all over the place, and yet highly revered as a as an artist, right?
SPEAKER_01:But also highly criticized. If you ever look at comments on any, you know, sort of social media platform, you'll see people saying anything from what a genius I love his work to that's dumb. A kid can do that.
SPEAKER_00:What was the genius part? The genius part was that he didn't give a shit what anybody thought, and he just did what he wanted to do, and it was creative, and it was creative because there's a what you feel in Twamley's work is this burst of life, it's a burst of authenticity.
SPEAKER_01:So don't let anybody tell you your authentic self is bad, which we love to do to kids, especially. And that's another thing when people say, Oh, any kid could do that. I'm like, Yeah, cool. Kids do cool stuff when they're free. Then they hit that age where the freedom gets a little bit shut down.
SPEAKER_00:So, how do you discern talent from that creativity in a child?
SPEAKER_01:That's a perfect. Um, it's not so much a child that I'll talk about, but that's a perfect segue into this story that right about when you and I were talking about creativity, I got this voice memo from my student, and she was thinking back to our composition class I taught her at Skidmore. And she was laughing about it, but she said that we they showed their stuff, and then I said, and these were the days where you could be less filtered when you taught a class. I said, Oh, so you're not really a dancer. And, you know, that could really come across as a harsh comment, but she understood by the tone of my voice, she explained all this to me. She understood that it wasn't a put-down, it was a kind of an inquisitive reaction she triggered in me because her work was different. And I couldn't figure it out yet because she was still kind of a young, you know, a young pup. But I saw something in her. She was funny. She there was something about what she was doing that didn't fit into the normal dance composition. So for her, rather than an insult, was a very uh, it sparked her. It actually gave her confidence. She said, Oh, I'm not the thing that, you know, I'm not the person that's gonna go audition for a company and probably not get in, because she wasn't that kind of a dancer. But that teacher just saw something in me that made me realize I am gonna go down this path of inquiry without possibly knowing where it's leading. That's another important thing. You have to be willing to follow where it leads. And not everybody can do that. But I thought that was so interesting that all these years later, that was a comment that actually gave her juice rather than shutting her down. And where is she today? She's in New Orleans, she's an incredible choreographer. She does very unusual projects, just what I saw, but I didn't know where it would go. And so she's creative and she has talent.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. What did you see? The talent or the creativity?
SPEAKER_01:I think I saw the creativity because it was still in that realm of dance. She wasn't particularly a phenomenal dancer. Now she's actually a beautiful mover, but you know, she hadn't found all that yet. So I think I saw it as her creativity, but more going back more to the word I mentioned uh earlier, authenticity. She was original, she was different, she wasn't copying anyone.
SPEAKER_00:Couldn't we say then that she was true to herself?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I don't think she knew it at the time because it was just burgeoning. You know, she she didn't know what it was, but she knew it was something that was her. And so did I.
SPEAKER_00:So, like Rick Rubin talks about in his book on creativity, that if you're going to create something with an audience in mind, yeah. You know this, right? Then it's not authentic, then it's commercial. You're doing it for someone else rather than allowing it to arise from you your own self-inquiry, your own authenticity, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yes, but I've always had a little bit of a problem with that audience thing because I know I know what he means. I know that when you sit in a room, let's say, for instance, my own work now with collage, and it's just for me, there is a kind of a freedom in the way you pursue it because you're not thinking about presenting it to people. But I don't think doing something knowing you have an audience means it's not creative or it's not original or authentic.
SPEAKER_00:If you're thinking, will they like this? Oh, if I do that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so explain that. Let's say you're doing a commercial type of a production that you know, you know, producers have invested in a lot of money. It doesn't mean the work's not going to be creative, but it means that you might not do something as brave as you would do if you weren't thinking, I better please this. We know a certain kind of audience comes to see this. I think it gives you some parameters maybe that aren't as free as when you're not thinking, will they like it?
SPEAKER_00:So one of the examples we were talking about earlier was uh Francis Ford Coppola and his film Megalopolis. You can just say we save up like to buy a new outfit or shoes or save up for a new car, and he saves 140 million dollars. So we handle we make a film of what he said is beauty, yeah, with no parameters, right? And he didn't give a shit if it was successful or not. Yeah, and then some people would like, well, you obviously you needed parameters because it was out of control or common opinion, but to him, it was exactly what he wanted.
SPEAKER_01:Well, he it's what he wanted, he had the money to do it and he should do it. But you know, there's other artists. I mean, I think Charles Eames talked about this, I know Stravinsky talked about this, the line limitations are freedom. So there's that part of creativity as well. That sometimes, you know, you face a blank stage or a blank page, whether you're a professional or an amateur, and oh, what do I do? So by by making limitations, you almost free the person up to give them pathways that they can follow. You know, it we might do that in a dance rehearsal, we call them prompts. You don't just say to someone, start moving, because they freeze up. You say, move with this in mind, make sure it goes from up to down, make a pattern of a circle or a spiral. Then they've got, oh, okay. And then suddenly they're very creative because they've got just a little bit of a map. So in that way, I think unlimited freedom is not always so good.
SPEAKER_00:An artist that you feel has had unlimited freedom and needed, you know, more limitation. Anyone come to mind?
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question. Nobody's popping into my head, but I'm sure I've said that many times. Another great Stravinsky quote is the instrument that most composers should learn to play is the eraser. That's a good so yeah, can people go blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, right? And it's not great.
SPEAKER_00:Because that's a good point. Um, I've seen it before. It's almost like that can be ego or narcissism that you want to hear me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Right. That can be on one hand, on the other hand, it can be untalented people who are just blah blah blah blah to be heard.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And there's that, you know, there's that word again. So we're very, we're very aware of talent because we live in a world where we're constantly seeing what people do, whether it's their music or their theater. But when you get to that word creativity, that for me goes into a whole other way of just like I'm gonna reiterate again. It's not maybe even associated with a product or a form that comes out. It can simply be the way you're living your life, the way you're thinking your thoughts, the way you're taking in the world around you. You know, are you flowing? What are some of the words that we do associate with creativity? I just said flow, and that is one of the ones I can feel the difference when my creativity tenses up a little bit. I'm not in the flow.
SPEAKER_00:I think what we're trying to say here is, and I do it with the mindful mandala cards. And people say everybody's creative, you know, and I know people who roll their eyes at that. But in reality, it's inherent in all of it. You know, creativity. I mean, we would never have survived as a species if we weren't creative about it, you know, making tools, finding food, growing food, procreating. So in that way, we're all creative. That's a part of being human. What's happened in our culture is we equate, as you said, creativity with art. Yes. That's a no-no. It's a no-no. I mean, it's great to be talented and creative and in the arts. We've seen that. But I also know very talented people who were also very creative and also in the arts that just ended up pretty much destroying themselves from not having limitations.
SPEAKER_01:And also, there's something about creativity. You know, we we we talked about kids before. Creativity can also possibly run out, not for real, but in your life. And so, you know, I think it was Neil deGrice-Tyson that talked about the real problem with aging. And he said, you know, people have families, they have responsibilities, they simply don't have the time to think or pursue knowledge anymore. And so that can shut down. And I think creativity can shut down if we don't keep training. It's almost like training, you know. Right. You have to keep, or I will say vigilance. You've got to stay vigilant to am I still discovering things? Am I still willing to inquire? Am I still willing to be a student? Am I still willing to reverse my position that I've held for so long that maybe helps keep me grounded? Or I think it was giving me something, but it's no longer serving me. If creativity doesn't stay in your life, you will wither.
SPEAKER_00:So do you think that happens to people as they age? Yes. That yeah. So that they hit it, they retire, or they're no longer needed to be creative and connecting to things.
SPEAKER_01:And here's maybe where talent might or art forms might come into it. If you're not lucky enough to have one of those talents or to have that be part of your life, maybe you don't have an avenue to keep that feeling of connectivity alive. And I'm just thinking this through for now, so it's it might be a little messy, but I think it is why you see so many retired people, they take up painting. Yeah, I was just gonna say. And by the way, it feels good to them because they're using their hands, it might be painting, it might be they're molding clay. That is also a form of connectivity, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and also really good for the brain.
SPEAKER_01:Very good for the brain, and it's connecting your body to something, whether it be that clay or your finger. I think finger painting is great. Remember how kids loved that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's great to paint with a brush, but oh, that that feeling of rubbing your hands and color comes out on a paper. That has to make people feel creative. Is it gonna be a side twambly? Who cares? Who cares? And so, with that who cares question is a great question, Delia, and possibly the crux of all of this. Who cares? Why are you doing it? Are you doing it so people will say it's good? Or are you doing it because it brings you something? To me, that's really what it's gonna boil down to. You know, we're not gonna get into AI, which you mentioned in one of our texts, but I will say I know friends who make music on those kinds of programs. I'm not against it. I think even when you use something that's AI or computers, you're still feeding it. But I will also say I don't think the Beatles have anything to worry about. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. There's always gonna be that genius that exists in someone and they don't need AI and they're not worried about somebody in their home making a song on a computer. I'm fine with it. It's a new tool. It's a new tool, right? Right.
SPEAKER_00:I think the interesting thing that's gonna be if we're gonna stop trusting creativity and talent because we don't know if it's real or not, if it's coming from inquiry and authenticity. We're constantly going, is this AI or did this person really create this? Well, so then we get, excuse me, so then we get creative people who have no talent. AI is gonna be that talent.
SPEAKER_01:Right. But they're still not gonna have any talent because they are programming the AI. But you bring up a great point, and this goes to something we talked about earlier, that sort of judgment. I have a friend who makes music with his AI, and we have a mutual friend, she's a professor, and she's very rigid about this kind, and she is insistent that that's not yours because you're using, you know, you're using something other than you. And I said, no, it is his. He's using a tool, but he's he's asking the questions, he's feeding it. It is his. She refuses to see that. So she's stuck in a place of judgment that if you're not sitting at a piano with your actual fingers on the keys, it's not your music. I don't believe that, but it doesn't also mean that his song is good or that he's talented, it just means he's using a tool. We're gonna circle back to those same questions because talent is different, right?
SPEAKER_00:It's gonna it's gonna be over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_01:Over and over AI or anything else.
SPEAKER_00:Right, exactly. It's not gonna be resolved because we're moving towards and away from something, right? And then there's gonna be people like really like myself. I got into AI looking at mid-journey, and to me, it was too easy as an artist. I was like, oh, hey, give me a picture of this and that, and then then boom, and there it was, modified it. And I was like, Oh, well, that wasn't any fun.
SPEAKER_01:It kind of jipped you of those things we were talking about earlier, of like it it just census of your research time, right?
SPEAKER_00:And my self-inquiry, and then my you know, my exploration, yeah. And uh, yeah, no, exactly. And on another hand, it was very limiting. There's this, you know, I've that whole thing of limiting is the limitations that a mentor can put on us, you know, or what we put on ourselves, or the limitation of the tool we use.
SPEAKER_01:Well, look at the speaking of the limitation of the tool we use, a lot of people used to say that about Bob Fossey, that he had certain physical limitations that didn't allow him to maybe be a Gene Kelly. But what he did was he invented his own style to match the limitations of his body, and it it worked out pretty well for him. Exactly. So that's that's creativity.
SPEAKER_00:There's creativity. That's creativity.
SPEAKER_01:Using what he has, it doesn't fit into the standard of everybody else, and he makes it his own. That's that back to the authenticity word. I think we're getting somewhere because we're separating the intention of the person. Why are you doing it? The the questions you're asking yourself. Are you trying to get a job? Are you concerned about what people think? I mean, if you're trying to get a job, then you have to be concerned about what people think because you're in competition with other people.
SPEAKER_00:And the job has certain parameters that you have to meet and work with.
SPEAKER_01:You have to be able to do it. You know, if you're in the opera, you gotta be able to hit the high C. So I think the main thing for anybody that's listening or we're asking these questions of our own life right now, and you talk about this a lot, Delia, in other parts of your work. What's your intention? You got to know that before, and you gotta free yourself. If your intention is simply to let what's inside of you come out, that's a kind of a connection, then that you have to just be true to that.
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of true, that you know, you're there. I'm looking over your shoulder at your refrigerator, what's on it, and there's John Lennon. Oh, yeah, you know, square and center. I know. And talk about being true to yourself, and and a truth teller, and a truth teller, and an icon, and one who is, you know, killed for that. And a great talent, you know. And a great talent, and a great creative talent, and one people look to and one AI strive for.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right. And you know, we have to revere those people. And I think again, wrapping up some of the key things we've hit on. If people are wondering about creativity in their own life when they listen to this podcast, you can't compare. You know, I mean, I like writing songs, I'm not ever gonna compare myself to John Lennon. It's just something I like doing. And I know I don't have a lot of self-delusion. You know, I know where I sort of rate in the people that I consider in my full field, which is dance and music. And I don't have a problem with that. You know, you you're given a certain amount of talent, you do your best, just as you would if you have an amazing amount of talent. You do your best to fulfill that. It's still the same things. You work hard, you show up, you keep doing it, you keep asking your questions. I'm not ever going to be a George Balanchine. I don't try to be. You don't have to be. I'm trying to be me. Everybody else is taken as the be yourself, everybody else is taken. Be yourself, everyone else is taken. Oh, I love that. That's a good one. It is, and you know, the the feeling of being creative, you can take those things that you work. You know, like in yoga when we say on the mat, you take it off the mat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You take those lessons that you learn and you take them off the mat and you take them off the canvas or the the musical score, and you try to apply them to your own life. And I think the people around you are gonna get a lot more out of their relationships with you if you can if you can be creative just in your everyday life. Okay, so last question here.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. And I I I think I asked it for you in the interview I did with you a couple of years ago. What would you say to your younger self now, your young deb coming up in the world, studying dance? Say maybe in your late 20s, that deb, right? Where you're just kind of on the cusp of making a major decision of what to do with your creativity.
SPEAKER_01:I I remember that you did ask me that. And maybe I said something in that interview about you have to be just dumb enough to keep keep believing that you're gonna make it, you know, that you're gonna, that you've got it. I think there's some truth to that. I mean, I think of myself in those years almost like my little doggy champ, you know, with my nose to the ground sniffing, you know, trying to find the next, where's my next move? Where's the next thing that I do? Some people are gifted and graced with a game plan, or they know from the time they're five. I was not like that. So, you know, I don't even know what I'd say to my young self because I probably wouldn't have known how to listen to it. But I will say that something in me had the confidence, whether it was warranted or not, I don't know. But I had the confidence to just keep going, you know, to keep doing what I was it was interesting to me, and it paid off. And I also want to say back to the young self, and to wrap this up, coming back to my student who talked about me recognizing the spark in her. If anybody out there is listening, one of the best things that you can do for young people is to see them. So she sparked my memory of my own teacher, and I was late when I started dancing, as you know, Delia, I was probably 20. And I walked into my first modern dance class and I felt at home, and it was Carol Touroff. She had danced with Eric Hawkins. We did a compositional study. She wanted us to do a color, and I picked silver. And at the end, I went into this side split and I wiggled my fingers and toes at the same time. And she said, Oh wow, you're gonna be a fantastic dancer. She saw something in, and it really wasn't dancer, I think she meant choreographer. It really wasn't anything except maybe that moment of authenticity. It surprised her. And those words, I felt seen, and that's what Alana told me. She said, I felt seen. Somebody finally sees me. That's what I'm trying to do with students, if I still have them, no matter what age they are, and I'm gonna be mentoring a fourth grader this year. And I just hope that I can provide him with that, with that, just like I see you, I'm here for you, I recognize you. But a lot of people are so busy with their own stuff that they they cannot see it in other people.
SPEAKER_00:It's an awareness, being present in a moment, yes, totally present to the person that you're, you know, not thinking about what I have to do and where I have to go and what has to happen, but just really being present to this person you're speaking to, listening, hearing, and seeing them.
SPEAKER_01:That's absolutely true, Delia. And also not being so, and here we go with that fixed position again, because Carol herself was very creative, not being so caught up in your own stuff that you can't see what's in front of you. Which is why people's families often, these these kinds of people with talent who they don't feel seen, their families don't really see who they are. They see them in the role that they play in their family. So along comes a teacher and goes, Oh, I see what you've got inside of you. It opens the floodgates for them. And it's a marvelous moment. And that's what Carol did for me, and it's what I did for Alana. So do it for someone.
SPEAKER_00:Listening to my conversation with Deb, I'm reminded that every artist walks a fine line between what we want to create and what life allows us to create. Our ego imagines perfection, the flawless peace, the great accomplishment. But our soul, well, it's after something deeper. It wants the truth. Limitation humbles us, it slows us down, strips away our false sense of control, and invites us to meet ourselves in the empty space. And it's there, in that stillness, that creativity reveals its true source. Not as something we do, but as something that moves through us. When we stop fighting the limits, they often become the shape that holds our art, much like a vessel that contains the water. Without the form, the water would spill and be lost. So maybe the next time you meet a wall in your creative process or or in your life, you can pause and ask. Ask yourself, what wants to emerge through this boundary? Because sometimes, well, our greatest art is born not from freedom, but from surrender. I want to thank my guest, Deborah Fernandez, for that wonderful interview and and the fun it was that we had together. You've been listening to Stories. I'm your host, Delia Quigley, and you can read a lot more on deliaquigly.substack.com. I've got a lot going on these days, y'all. I've been trying to bring it all together. I've got an Etsy shop on my mindful mandala store on Etsy, got calendars and prints, and I have I'm a little out of control these days because I'm a purpose-driven woman, and there's so much I want to share with you with my writings, my Sunday guidance, and my five-body wisdom. So if you haven't yet, you know, sign up on my Substack, deliaquigly.substack.com, and I want to give a big shout out to those of you who who subscribe on the paid format and financially support me in this work that I'm doing. Again, thanks so much for listening. This has been Stories. I'm your host, Delia Quigley. Until next time.
